BMW E21 value?

[p4uke]

Every time I look what E21's are going for it just seems so low in comparison to other cars of the era, for example Ford Fiesta Mk1-2 are going for 2-3-4grand and same for Golfs which can fetch alot more. But then an E21 in good condition can go for less than grand??? It just seems the E21 is massively under valued. Anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this?

[goldbmwe21323i]

my thoughts are the value on any car is priced at the sellers value and then if it sells it may trigger a trend as all people look at the net and get a idea what the going rate is on the car they have. so if u sell for 5k then i say if he got 5k then i want 4 to 6k as mine is bit better or worse. so all in all a make and model does not have a value.... the buyer and seller set the value and trend. imo

[TopCat]

OK I am going to stick my oar in here and I realise that what I have to say may not be popular with some- there again it is only my opinion.

First of all BMWs are looked down upon by the classic car fraternity- don't know why but it has always been thus.

A barn find TR5 went for £15k and then 2 scruffy barn find E Types went for 30k each recently

E30 M3s shot up in value (to £75k) but only for museum low mileage unmolested examples- E9 CSLs went up as well to around £50k, but the curious thing is that these rises haven't dragged more mainstream BMWs along with them.

Could it be that there were approx 1.3m E21s made?

Now on the continent things seem to be a bit different with a couple of really nice E21s asking Euros 15-18K (step forward Lars who has one)

What the high E21s on the continent have in common with those rusty barn finds is ORIGINALITY- this I believe is the key. By all means stick in your M50-M52 motors to make your E21s fly but caveat you will be unlikely to achieve anything like what you spent when you come to sell- ask Harley Trike and E21 Mark!

So for my tips for future E21 values are to
1 Find a unused LHD car here in UK
2 Store it away in original condition
3 Try to ensure it is a special - say the Run out cars, or an early 320i 4 cylindar, or a v late 323i- Alpinas are good too as well as other in period modded cars

Now for most of us this is a pipedream- we all want to enjoy our cars- my advice for what it is worth is to use your E21 - this at least amortises the initial cost etc but be very careful how you modify the car if long term ownership and value is your aim.

I know there will be many who may violently disagree with my views; the thing is it doesn't take long to spend £10k getting an E21 into VG shape- the way above is to ensure you keep as much of that as possible when you sell IMHO!

[nas80]

The value in the UK is lower then it is on the continent. I found this out when I was over at the sharknose looking at cars for sale. Even ropey e21s were pitched at like 2-3k Euro a nice 323I was 8k euro.

In the last three years the value in the UK has gone up a lot.. I bought my car for 600 quid three years ago and it was a near mint example. Try getting a bog standard 316 in great Nick now your talking 2-3k and a 323I about 5k.

I like your point about originality but I find that it's only people over 50 who actually like originality, anyone who's younger then 40 would probably disagree. I base this opinion on how many older peers have taken a dislike to my car and how many people in my own demographic (well younger then me) say "that's sick init" whenever I stop.

I didn't build mine to sell though but I do have an agreed value by the insurance company for ten grand. That's what counts more then a subjective opinion of you and I reckon. If I was to sell maybe I'd not get 10k but then again a guy with a mint original e21 323I in blue didn't get 10k for his car either last year iirc.

Tell you one thing it's clearly a demand, some people only want a 2002 or an e30 m3 just wait longer the e21 will become more stupidly expensive as soon as the 40 year old car free tax comes in.

[Jeroen]

Well I think TC has a point. People are not keen on paying a lot of money for someone else's project like a M20B25 or M50 conversion, while a mint bone stock 323i fetches way over 10K these days. That is on this side of the pond and there you have another difference. The market for RHD cars is more or less limited to the UK, while a left hander can easily find a new owner anywhere else in Europe. That huge market has its influence on prices as well.

And if I look around me, there are so many conversions or below average restores. You can buy a pretty fair 323i for abt 5K here, but you know one day you will have to do a restore and these always take more of your time and money than planned. Add some new parts, seals, chrome, preventive maintenance, all the things under "when in Rome" and you know that what first looked like a decent example will cost at least 5K more (at least here) before you can call it a finished project that is really, really good and not a cheapass average respray. Then you pay 10K and still you have a restored car with some mileage. In that case buying something that doesn't require you to put in all the effort is easily worth more than 10K. And these are the cars that are rare, because of age, and because those are the exact reasons why they are sought after.

I was offered 15K Euros for the Baur at the Sharknose Meeting and I didn't even have to think about it. With its condition and all the mods done I may have a real hard time finding something similar, so even though it is good money, it doesn't get me a better example. But used car prices in the UK are much lower in every class. If I see the used car prices on the net or in tests like from Top Gear or Fifth gear I sometimes wish I lived over on your side. Saw Tiff on an Escort Cosworth for 15K, you'll probably have to add some 10K for a good example here.

We clearly can't compare pricing for LHD and RHD and I'm more familiar with pricing over on this side, but the good news is that in general prices are on the increase indeed!

[uwbuurman]

Of coure the UK cars are cheaper then on the continent, Them steering wheels are all on the wrong side!!

on a more serious note: I'm restoring my VFL 1978 323i, original Dutch car, in the Netherlands the plates go with te car, so one look at the plates tells you if the car was imported or not. Mine is originally Dutch first delivery. That also helps to increase the value. Along with a pre facelift, 323i and a load of OEM options like dogleg gearbox, LSD, pop out windows, recaro's in the right cloth etc. I bought the car for around 5k pounds. Investing about 15k pounds to get it in mint condition, setting me back between 20 and 25k. Thats what this e21 is worth to me. When its done, Ill hope for a taxationworth of about 15k, but if that will happen?

Anyhow the value of an e21 will never reach heights like iconic cars like the e30 M3. An e36 M3 will also never fetch that kind of money, nor will the e46, but a CLS already does. I think that it is a combination of mainstream desirability and numbers of production. If there were just 1500 e21 323i's made, and they won some races or something like that, then the value would be much better.

On the other hand, the cars are not an investment for me. I dont care what the cost is of a Golf mk1 gti or a Fiesta. I want the BMW.

[niske]

323i isn't powerful enough for top model (compare with 2002 turbo and E30 M3) and simply it's nothing special... something is missing...
I think that is one of the reasons for "E21 value problem"...
And that's why there is so many M20 2.5/2.7 and M50/M52 conversions...

[arshad76]

Really interesting comments, I guess I'm categorising in my own mind distinctions between modified and unmodified, right or left hooker, old and new. So, I (like the masses I'm guessing) would also go for an unmodified car. Some things would sway my decision though for a modified car.

If I'd followed the history of the conversion from the start, what parts were used and the quality of the work and if I liked (at least enough) of the final product without having to change things again. The challenge with creating what you think is the ultimate E21 is that it might not be that for someone else and it can be a hard pill to swallow knowing you've spent thousands on something that is either worth quite a lot more as a whole or conversely even less. The plus side is that they will still be worth something, said owner will have created something unique for them and they should just hold onto it if they don't get the price they're hoping for.

I guess the right and left hand drive and our cars generally not being "special" enough might just come down to simple supply and demand and chronological age maybe? a 2002 is generally worth more than a E21, which is worth more than a E30, which is.. you get the idea.

Since I'm now seriously considering selling my own car, I too am aware that it isn't going to be everyones cup of tea and sometimes it just comes down to an impulse purchase. I've seen some absolute dogs of car's sell for decent money from this forum and other really good original and quality conversions struggling to sell anywhere near a fair sum.

It's a funny old world. Going to be sticking mine for sale after its MOT. Be interested to see what i get back.

[Rteyp]

An interesting subject and our recent sale at over £6k I thought was top money for a top 320/6 However I see the our car has errrr more than doubled in value in 2 months !

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/ ... pe/2392218

I would like to point out we were more than happy with the price we got especially when considering we paid £3400 back in 2011.

Wonder what it will fetch ?

[arshad76]

No comment on the price for that 320, but sometimes the strategy is to ask for something way over - someone offers 5k less and they agree at 2k off and everyones happy. Does look mighty, mighty nice though, wouldn't look out of place in a museum.
Does remind me of a LHD 2002 (actually a 1602) in Scotland with around 6,000 on the clock quite a few years ago. Made strong money at an auction, but the initial novelty was the very low mileage and it was generally accepted that the more it would be driven, the greater the value would fall - much akin to a new car.

A new owner then had it modified by Jaymic with body changes, minor rust repair and an upgraded engine and took it to San Fran with him. OEM folk would have been up in arms, but I thought that every mod was tasteful and well executed and I would have personally paid more for the extra work put in.

[AndyBaur]

I agree with the comments about originality v modified but not because I'm over 50. Modified cars will always be valued lower because a) the market for them is smaller & b) you don't know what you're really getting. The strong money is (& always will be) for original (restored or not) models. One man's modification is anothers' pig's breakfast. I quite accept that an M52 makes the E21 far more usable on a daily basis than a 320/6 with that bloody carb but, not many people buy a 30 year car as a daily driver. So, the thinking is, if you're going to have a classic car then keep it as God intended (period mods excepted).

Having said all that, simple mods that help without destroying the cars character are acceptable - '02's with a 5 speed box, electronic ignition, better lights etc, etc. Wheels are a matter of taste - I had a set of E39 sports wheels on my 635 which were infinitely better than the TRX ditch-finders but when I came to sell, buyers wanted the originals back on.

To this end, I'm considering fitting an M20B20 with Motronic from a late E30 to the Baur. Still pretty much the same engine but better drive-ability. I don't need a 2.5 as I don't need it to be faster (got a 3.0 Z4 for that). Will this harm it's value for not being original or will it add value for being more usable? Who knows?

As for BMW values. The UK probably does lag behind Europe as the market is much smaller however, most have been climbing steadily although at different rates. CSL values started to rise when its contemporaries started to make it look like a bargain. However there were never many to start with & many have been scrapped due to rust so they are a finite source. This has meant many people have had to go for Plan B (the CS) until they realised they could get an M635. Except they have been reducing in numbers through export to Oz etc & rust (again) so prices have almost doubled. A good straight M635 is now £18k - £20k with garage queens going for up to £30k. This in turn has dragged up the prices of standard 635's though the price gap between them & the M635 has grown too. E30 M3's have risen sharply in value & this has had a knock-on effect on lesser models.

However, big buck models aside, £5k is the price point most people are comfortable paying for a weekend toy. That will buy you anything from a usable MGB (or good GT) to a reasonable Jag XJS. It will also get you a late '90's SL which, lets not forget is now 15 years old or more. A later generation perhaps but things move forward. So, it needs to be something a bit special to fetch much over that £5k.

So where does that leave the E21? In the shadow of the E30 for sure. There are a lot more E30's to choose from, they are slightly better for corrosion protection, fuel injection makes them more drivable & more reliable & the parts situation is better. It's also old enough to look 'classic' but young enough not to drive like a tractor. Rarity is on the side of the E21 though. Possibly so rare that it will remain on the sidelines.

Time will tell.

[niske]

@AndyBaur
You're right, M3 (and it's DTM glory on 1st place) rising up the value of whole E30 series !

On the other side E21 doesn't have such impressive model and that's the problem!
When they become really rare, things about value will be better, for sure...
I think that period modifications, in some solution, can raise the price...

[e21mad]

About 25 years ago I was a member of the BMW car club east coast. I had a 78 e21 320is in Malaga wine. It was my 3rd e21 and I thought they were great! The club however had a different opinion. The cars they liked were the 628-m635, m535i,2002tii-2002turbo, and the csl. They looked at my e21 as an interloper. The main problem was if you look at the list, one thing is common. Performance. The fact is the e21 was a safer more comfortable car than the 2002 but it was also heavier. This made it slower and more wallowy in the corners and of course that lovely nose lift over 100 mph didn't help either. I think this is still the problem with the e21 value. As a collectable its only value in the main community is as a place holder being the first 3series and its the e30 that brought back the performance people wanted. In time the e21 will be more valuable as you say, age and limited number will be the key and originality will be the money maker. I guess you could compare the mustang models and see the same thing. Early 60's mustangs and 2002's are fun to drive. 70's and early 80's mustangs and e21's were fat and slow and so were a dissapointment. Then 90's mustangs and e30's began to get fun again. You end up with valuable-not interested-valuable again. I hate to admit it but I think the e21 will always be a cult car like a mustang mach 1 and never looked at in the same way as the others. My advice, mods or not, prom queen or rust bucket, love your e21 your way and value it for you.

[nas80]

I am of the opinion that a standard e21 like most cars in the late 70's and early 80's are crap. I came across my e21 by accident, I didn't even know they existed until I was stood in front of it. NO one gave a crap about them. It was completely standard apart from some crap spoiler some idiot had put on before.

After a few months I realised i could not live with my standard e21 as it was the complete opposite to an "ultimate driving machine". just take a bend with stock suspension (even if its in good repair) and you fill your underpants. Just look at the cars we have here on this site right now, I bet you in some ways most of them have had an upgrade.

If you watch programs such as fast and loud, and American hot rod and wheeler dealers. What they do is usually upgrade the car - restore it., (well sometimes in wheeler dealers they do) they then increase the cars value muchly. Thats why I am saying when you upgrade the whole lot and restore an e21, to the point where there is enough performance to shame modern cars, and you make it into fun thing to drive, and the body work is immaculate with a finish better then the orange peel effect factory paint. you will get asked all the time if you will sell, the answer after you have invested all that time, money and effort is always "No way!"

If you look at stock 1.3 escort and then looking at one that's had the works done, the YB powered, gusseted, anti tramp bar'd and upgraded everything escort is going to be more value then the stock 1.3. Thats probably why the only valuable e21's are the hartge's and the alpina. They are stupid money and on paper the performance is outstanding but only because they are ready made hot rods.. Unfortunately they are also so rare that if the seller doesn't like you or know you, then he / she would refuse to sell

[polov8]

I have a 316, it was £1500 and 115,000 miles when I bought it. I'm getting through fixing all the (mostly very minor) rust, and then I'll sort the paint, and if I went through the suspension and restored it with new OEM spec parts, it'd be worth what? Maybe £3000?

To me, I can see the potential in the car, the suspension is all bolt on, and should anyone in the future wish to return it to stock they could do so very easily. The engine is ok, it's no ball of fire but it can keep up with traffic, but that's not enough for me. a 323i isn't that fast, so I'll be upgrading way beyond that in the near future, at the same time I'd like a 6 speed box, and a stronger diff with an LSD. All these parts bolt in, and can be unbolted too, so if by some miracle E21 values skyrocket, then it's possible to revert to stock.

But they're not likely to. Sure the Hartge's and Alpina's will get more and more valuable, and the 323i will probably steadily increase, but the market for the lesser models in the classic car community (who are the ones that determine value) is never going to be that great. So if that is the case, I have no qualms about modifying my car to make it drive, handle and perform better, because in all likelihood, there's more chance of me getting a good portion of my money back that way, than just restoring it to a bone stock 316.

I think the E21 is safely outside the banger territory it was once in, and hoefully that means the vast majority are safe from the drifters, but I'm not sure it'll ever get to the same safe, classic status that the 2002 lives in right now.