new eu laws on modifying your own car

[murran]

wof, warrenty of fitness, its new zealands "mot" test

[TopCat]

Aha
That explains it!

[e21mad]

You guys are absolutely right. Most of the mods done to an e21 are well out of the mot risk factor. As long as the car is sound and all the seat belts work and the emissions fall within the spec for the year of manufactur there isnt a lot they can say. the 02 with a v8 in it might be a bit over the top as the suspension has to be modified to carry the engine but an e21 with an e30 engine is like comparing satsumas with clementines. The emissions will be better if all is right and the power to weight ratio will still be good. My worry is the new shake beds they are using in my local mot. The ramp is fitted with hydraulics that shake the car from side to side since it is no longer safe for techs to use crow bars on suspension componenets to check for wear. i dont think my 30 year old car should be exsposed to that kind of stress. I guess Ill find out next week when she goes through it.

[TopCat]

hey the Eurozone Members
We would love to learn of your experiences here!

For example the Guy in Norway with the super modded e21 Frank Ulvang in Performance BMW at: http://www.bmwe21.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=16659

Makes much of the trouble he had at the TUV test persuading the testers that the mods were appropriate and he had to provide evidence of the Hartge 335 E21 as being in period before being allowed to fit the 3.0 litre bb

I am convinced that mods in Europe have to be done to a much higher historical provenance than UK and I suspect that it won't be long before the same thing happens in UK as well.

Quo vabis ? Eurozone members- I would love to hear from you re this?

[Jeroen]

In Holland they need one car of a certain spec. That one needs to be tested thoroughly and if that's ok, others can use the same test results (recorded in their database) to get a car allowed on the road. Like if there's one guy that has, say a M30B35 built in and stock 323i brakes all round, the next guy can get it on the road as well. First test sets you back abt EUR 1.200 though including an extensive road and brake test, and they are still entitled to check and question what you did if they don't trust things. Usually with a decent setup you'll be ok though.

The UK is known to be far easier and many DIY guys from mainland Europe had their car tested in the UK first. Since they're all part of Europe, other countries had to allow the car on the road then as well (one Europe), after another check of course. But I believe there were too many weird kit cars using that route so I doubt if that's still possible.

In Holland we're lucky though, Germany and Belgium are far more strict and you'll have to prove the parts used were tested and found suitable for your setup which makes things a lot harder. The average manufacturer of springs for a stock E21 isn't too keen to declare their springs fit for your 3.5 conversion and take the responsibility. Like Gerrit in Belgium had to prove the springs on his car were on Hartge's originally or at least the same spec. That makes things a lot tougher.

[TopCat]

thanks J
for this

I suspected as such! The UK is a soft touch for mods and approval thereof..................

Let me tell you guys what is happening on the FIA appendix K racing front!
An extension of all of this:
If you can demostrate that for example a Corvette built before dec 1965 ran with discs all round (easy) with a racing smallblock fitted (not so easy) at a weight of x lbs in an Internationel Event in period ie before Dec 1965 then OK you can build and race such a car now.
So you may copy these specs on a std cooking 327 cid pre 65 corvette

But if you have the original and very rare perfect combo such as the Corvette GS (4 built|)
This means that if you have a genuine GS Sport Corvette (sticking to these) for a moment - then you are quids in like millions!

Same goes for Shelby Mustangs -(we tend to call Mustnags in CCCUK!) real Shelby Rs pre 65 in perfect (optimised order ) now go for 250k+ Euros or £ I don't care- a huge amount!

so the same will happen IMO to cars built after the cutoffs of pre 65 and pre 70 and pre 81- if your chassis was the one which had the special racing gear IN PERIOD- then it is probabaly worth a lot of money prospectively from hereon. in Bmw terms that means Alpina Hartge Snitzer etc

So beware E21s without any such provenance having a lot of money and effort expended when in fact they are 316s with M52s or the latest modern equivelants installed- sorry guys but in my book and the Authorites' these are "hotrods"- fine but they are not historics and long term their value will not be usually be commensurate with the cost of the conversion.

[nas80]

Right. Bit of badge snobbery going on - i dont care what they are worth because they are made by whoever.

How about a race the topcat. My m52 2.8 316 against ANY alpine hartge or schnitzel e21 you can get.

My car would smoke any of them, easily. It was built by Nas - which makes it more rare. Also surpassing any of the above in performance and equipment - i laugh last apart from when i go to sell it - which i probably wont!

As far as i care the eu can do what it likes - laws come and go - they propose new ones and thats fair enough. Every car i have owned i have setup to how i would like it - so this is a way of life for me, if they want to prevent my way of life - simple! Ill just go elsewhere where they dont oppress me.. Ill take my tax money and cars etc - but right after I do a massive tyre shredding burnout outside downing street for them to remember me by!

i would like to mention - my car was inspected by an motor engineer right after i did my swap - i have a letter saying its more than fit for the road. - meets all the laws here no problem.

One other thing i would like to mention that personally, i wouldnt bother racing anything german or american - i would use a mazda rx7 - its pretty much a race car from the factory and as you can buy mazdaspeed parts no problem with that rule book either!

btw how come a mk1 1.3 escort with a yb fetches 25k?

Nas

[TopCat]

Oh dear I don't think that the FIA view their approach as badge snobbery

I was only seeking to highlight the situation in Historic Motorsports and relate this experience to where the wind is blowing from the East (EU)

It is exactly BECAUSE your M52 E21 "316" would smoke away anything with period mods - that they take the view that they do!

Somewhere I have commented at length about period race mods.........here or CCCUK

As I see it at present there is nothing holding modders back, and that is fine whilst it lasts- - You are clearly good at it!

I was only seeking to urge caution and manage expectations when the years pass and an unmodified E21 is more valuable than one that has been retrofitted with modern parts, and the modded hotrod is then ineligible for pre 81 historic events
caveat

[TopCat]

Found the link it was on this forum over the FIA eligibility rules "in more detail" please note that I have had it from both sides over the years!- from over officious scrutineers/race organisers as well as cheque book racers!!
See:

http://www.bmwe21.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... 41#p168231

[nas80]

I was referring to road car law not historical racing. But fair point my car is an 82 so not eligible anyway!

I don't think ill lose value on my car.

Only old old people like originality and besides that e21s are a sack of shit in stock form. Which is why everyone is modifying them.

[M15KYY]

I don't give a shit about these new eu laws to be honest, if they want to make my car illegal and want to prosecute me they'll have to catch me first.

[e21-Mark]

Chances are a lot of older cars like ours, or cars already modified, will be exempt anyway.

[Reck]

My worry is the new shake beds they are using in my local mot. The ramp is fitted with hydraulics that shake the car from side to side since it is no longer safe for techs to use crow bars on suspension componenets to check for wear. i dont think my 30 year old car should be exsposed to that kind of stress. I guess Ill find out next week when she goes through it.

Yeah, my old one had this done in Nov. It's pretty rough, but thankfully over pretty quickly. E21's are tough but I can imagine some other 'classics' from that era are going to have bits falling off!

[e21-Mark]

I doubt the stresses are any more than our cars go through on the roads tbh.

[Reck]

True. Pothole slalom round here.