Malaysian Airlines flight MH17

[Jeroen]

It's starting to annoy me to a point I need to write something about this. As the Dutch community is affected more than other countries perhaps we are more occupied with the whole issue than others.

It all starts with a bunch of monkeys that just had their brain eaten, deciding to shoot down a civil airplane and after the crash they decide to crawl over the corpses and steal all their personal belongings. That may very well be the same monkeys.

I can imagine that, being a warzone, things can't be controlled much after that either. Hence everyone is allowed on the scene. People offering to help, with good or less good intentions, no control or coordination. Also allows any parties involved in the taking down of the plane to remove any incriminating evidence, how convenient. Even today people are tampering with the remains of the airplane and everything that is still there, while qualified rescue workers are only allowed limited access.

I am very happy that after a lot of tampering, and after throwing around filled body bags like sand bags, the first remains of the victims were flown over to Holland. Finally there's respect and a worthy treatment for these innocent victims of a war where brainless monkeys are fighting other brainless monkeys, like on more places on this planet. In an impressive ceremony and procession the first 40 fallen were received yesterday and let's hope they can be identified rapidly but thoroughly. The next couple of days we will see similar ceremonies and we hope to have all casualties gathered soon.

Let's not forget the more than impressive speech held for the UN by our foreign affairs minister Frans Timmermans, at least as as impressive as seeing our royals being just as touched as most of us are here. First, let's get all victims out of that hell hole, make sure they get a decent last journey and help their family and friends to cope with their tragic and inconceivable losses.

Then it is time for justice for those responsible. Just like all those innocent victims including kids in Gaza, no one should be able to get away with actions like these. I really hope justice will prevail.



Link to the text of Frans Timmermans' speech for the UN

[uwbuurman]

Hear hear!

Bring the fallen home, after that, find those who did this, including the braindead people who supported these actions by word or by providing weapons and bring them to justice!!!

[TopCat]

My take on this - is that the speeches and the reception in Holland given to the dead really shows Holland in a good light- it shows all that we know is true of the Dutch - in that you are compassionate, kind, law abiding and honourable race!

[nas80]

someone said "the Dutch are known for their soft hearts, lets hope that this tragedy doesn't harden them"

Im really pissed off with the world at the moment, you got dead infants in palenstine, jets going missing and being shot down, famine pestilence and all sorts of stuff like that.

We should have a world amnesty day, where everyone and all countries just take a day off so no one kills another on purpose.

[Jeroen]

Why not make every day world amnesty day? Keep dreaming I guess. I see your messages in Facebook Nas, loud and clear and I agree. We have been fighting over differences in race, culture, religion or beliefs for ages. On that front we haven't progressed much over the past centuries

In more and more cases it feels to me like people are looking for excuses to start a fight like in the case of the Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard whose work was used as an excuse to start riots after first letting pass many cartoons that were much more offensive. Or what about having built a country like the former Yugoslavia, gathering prosperity through tolerance and working hard together to progress in many ways. And then throw it all away, income, prosperity, peace, start fighting again and destroy all you've gathered over decades in a matter of years or even less?

By expressing myself I might trot some toes but I really can't understand that. I do realize that most 'civilized' or western countries have not been better in the past either, and some still are very much. We don't seem to realize that these cockfights don't get us anywhere, its only destructive. WE are a weird kind of animals.

[Mobster]

My thoughts and prayers are with those that lost their lives, however what is remarkable is that world leaders were quick to come out and point fingers at Putin and to call for sanctions against the Russian state. Even our own Prime Minister could not help himself but to score political points on the back of so many lives lost. Shame on you Cameron !
However what angers me most, is that not one western leaders has come out and called for sanctions against the Zionist state for the innocent slaughter of the children of Gaza !
I could put pictures and videos up on here that most of you will probably never forget yet the western media under pressure from the Zionists, are just not reporting it, instead focusing on the rockets Hamas is firing into Israel.
I hope god shows no mercy to those who are explicit in the killing of the Children of Gaza. I pray for this every night.

[Mobster]

On the subject of Kurt Westergaard, I'm sorry Jeroen, the guy is a freaking disgrace to your nation and deserves everything he got or is going to get.

[uwbuurman]

Kurt Westergaard is Danish, not Dutch. So he's no disgrace to our country. All the guy did was making a funny about Mohammed. That is to like or not to like. Some are offended by it, and i can understand that. But to wish somebody dead, or actually threathen his family, swear to kill him and his loved ones, all because one doesn't like ones drawing? Thats nowhere near the love that all religions preach. Just don't like it and disregard the matter. Done, over with.

All religions are based on living the right way. All religions. And within all religions, not some, but all, there are extremists who think that their religions is the only "right way". And than the start to force their way on to others. And then people start killing eachother, because they disagree. And thats what is freaking disgusting!

As far as getting myself into a religious discussion, this is all i will say about this matter. It is just my opinion and i leave it with that.

Back on topic: yesterday 74 coffins came home, today another 70 or so, and we're not there yet.

[Mobster]

Sorry my bad, he is Danish.

The fact remains that if you know by doing something is going to anger millions of people, why do it. For arguments sake, if someone drew a controversial cartoon about the victims of this tragic incident, I'm sure you guys will be pretty pissed off and there will be some extremists who will feel they need to put this someone 6ft under.
In life, there are extremists and they do what thy have to.

[Jeroen]

The sad thing is that this was, as indicated before, used as an excuse after many much more offensive cartoons passed. Bad timing perhaps. And offend millions, in a Danish newspaper with a total circulation of around 100.000 and only in Denmark?

All excuses from the less intelligent that only have one way to respond, aggressiveness, either verbally or physically. Take Gandhi, Bhutto, Malala... people too stupid to respond on the same level turned to violence. Call that a civilized response?

[Mobster]

The sad thing is that this was, as indicated before, used as an excuse after many much more offensive cartoons passed. Bad timing perhaps. And offend millions, in a Danish newspaper with a total circulation of around 100.000 and only in Denmark?

All excuses from the less intelligent that only have one way to respond, aggressiveness, either verbally or physically. Take Gandhi, Bhutto, Malala... people too stupid to respond on the same level turned to violence. Call that a civilized response?

I'm sorry, I don't agree. Anyone in their right mind would call it Blasphemous. The "cartoons" were deliberate effort to defame Islam and depict its Prophet in bad light and this outraged Muslims across the planet, me included. The newspaper refused to correct its deliberate attempt to create Islamaphobia among the masses. The amendment came only after people in many Muslim countries boycotted Danish products and some countries banned the imports which adversely affected their economy. For those who may not be too familiar with the paper, The Jyllands-Posten seriously needs to get their act together. They recently decided to stir up trouble again by quoting a Danish scholar who was referring to homosexuality is forbidden in islam. The trouble is, they decided to stir up this trouble on the eve of a grand mosque opening in Copenhagen which the newspaper and its editors were fiercely against.
Look at the stance the paper takes on the Palestinian cause. On 5 January 2008, the newspaper published an editorial expressing the views of the newspaper where they give unreserved support for Israel’s war in Gaza. The newspaper starts by telling its readers they are happy that those in the international community who are important are not condemning the Israeli attacks on Gaza. The newspaper continues with saying that the war is not complicated at all and blames Hamas and Palestinians for the Israeli attacks. Newspaper also states that Israel should avoid killing civilians but continues “But war is war. Civilians have always died in wars.”

This is the newspaper that printed the cartoon - and then you blame muslims for their reaction. Come on, dose a realism. It was not muslims that killed 6 million jews, but it was us "Europeans".....it happened only 70 years ago....is this what you call a civilised response !!!

We have all seen the images of what the Zionist regime is doing to the people of Gaza....Look at the innocent slaughter of the 4 beautiful boys playing football on the beach that were killed by a Zionist Warship. Tomorrow when the fathers of these boys decide to avenge the murder of their sons and to do something about it....you know what the west calls these fathers.....................terrorists.

I hope god shows no mercy to those who condone what is happening to my people in Gaza.

[Jeroen]

I refuse to take sides and that is also not my role, nor the forum's function (glad we're in the off topic section). All I'm saying is that imho in no way aggression is justified if offended, either as a person or by the millions, or by religion. And in that I am not making any exceptions, neither on race, religion, culture or beliefs as stated earlier and therefore I also cannot justify the actions against race during WW2 or even way earlier misbehavior by Europeans during the ages of crusades and colonial times. Aggression is not justified, period.

[nas80]

That cartoonist guy is an idiot, he on purpose insulted and provoked vast swathes of people then you should expect a reaction - why should people take stuff laying down?

Back to MH17 - this reminds me of that time when America shot down a passenger jet in Iran and then tried to cover it up - and when presented with facts George bush snr said he didn't care what the facts were - America doesn't apologise...

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/07/24 ... ver-it-up/

also don't be naïve to think that there is no motive for Ukraine to be invited to join the EU the reason Britain is really pushing for it because it holds an advantage for them as there is a port in the Ukraine which is a key location for Russia naval power. if the eu / uk get that then it take a military advantage against Russia.

[Jeroen]

That cartoonist guy is an idiot, he on purpose insulted and provoked vast swathes of people then you should expect a reaction - why should people take stuff laying down?

An intelligent reaction would be nice. Not aggression, that's only a sign of powerlessness.

As for MH17 (knowing I started this sidestep), all the short sighted blames that are being expressed are real sad. After we make sure all 298 innocent victims get a decent last journey, a thorough investigation should try to reveal what parties are responsible or somehow involved, then they should account for their deeds.

[arshad76]

I agreed with the initial post. To shoot down civilians from any country is a truly heinous slaughter of innocents and my condolences to the Dutch people, many of which I have built bonds with through the generosity and friendships developed through this forum itself.

Just my two pence on Kurt Westergaard the cartoonist and my thoughts are somewhere in the middle of everyone else's. The respect for the Prophet Muhammad PBUH is so much that for Muslim’s it is advised against even creating positive images about how he appeared physically. Therefore, as a Muslim I too was offended, disappointed, even angered that a figure so close to most Muslim’s hearts was shown in such a degrading manner - essentially just for kicks. We talk about democracy, yet the same country also allows societies for openly advocating paedophile's. So even freedom of speech and freedom of expression has fair play and limits and I believe the artist over stepped those.

However, I unequivocally agree with Jeroen here and indeed the movement of my own sect of Islam. For Muslims to react with violence is a move that has and will continue to shoot them in the foot and cement their perception as a “backwards religion” by many. Especially when those who follow it the right way know it as exactly the opposite. I remember seeing a video posted by a young Muslim at the time of those events mentioned how we should instead feel sorrow for the ignorance of their thoughts. Exactly what the Prophet PBUH would have done in times when he encountered substantially worse abuse during his life. Any “punishment” is in the hands of a greater authority and really not for religious groups or individuals of any kind to get up and retaliate with violence, similarly cheap shots against rival religions or worse still attack the innocent.

On a lighter note I’m hoping you guys will give me some advices on potential colours for an E3!